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The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model

  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54263 by AugustLeo
The N Paths of Enlightenment Model was created by AugustLeo
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  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54264 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
"With respect to the Theravadin Four Paths of Enlightenment model, can someone explain what differentiates 2nd Path from 1st Path, 3rd from 2nd, 4th from 3rd."

Hi Michael,

There are many different interpretations of the Theravada Four Path Model. I'd say that the articulation of the Four Path Model that most closely resembles the ethos of this particular forum is Daniel Ingram's "Revised Four Path Model", which you can read about here --> bit.ly/4fSPTX

Let us know what further questions you have after you read it.

And... welcome to the forum!

~Jackson
  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54265 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54266 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54267 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
Thanks for providing some of your practice background, Michael.

I'm interested to hear what Kenneth has to say about this as well. One thing to consider, though, is that not everyone notices a Path attainment in the same way.

For example, in the Visuddhimagga influenced branch of Theravada Buddhism, one is trained to look very closely at moment to moment experience and to "note" every little flash or blip of experience. Due to this, it become quite possible and rather natural to notice the momentary cessation (and even the three swift moments leading to it) that signify the end of an Insight cycle and the attainment of a the next Path.

However, not every tradition emphasizes this moment-to-moment noticing of micro-sensations, and many people (even those who are quite advance - or even fully enlightened) either never noticed such a phenomenon nor would care to, as it is of little significance to them and their style of practice.

Because of this fact, it makes sense to try and piece together what the experience of the yogi is after the Path moment in order to get an idea of where they are on the map. What is the experience of someone at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th path? What do they notice? Where is the energy flowing or jamming up in their body? What dualities (if any) remain? At this point I think that answering these questions is more helpful, as the subject matter can be examined for a prolonged period. The momentary cessations that precede each Path are only really observed once'¦ if at all.

(continued below)
  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54268 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
(continued from above)

Having said all of that, I think there are some clues that may help us discover what you're asking about. For instances, I think that paying attention to the energetic activity during review fruitions of a particular path may reveal some distinct characteristics of the initial Path moment. As an example, I remember recognizing quite clearly that the review fruitions I experienced during 2nd Path were simultaneous with the transition of energy from a lower chakra (heart or throat) up to my brow/third-chakra. I've heard similar testimony from others. This seems to add validity to Kenneth's position regarding developmental enlightenment (the path to arahantship) as being a physio-energetic process.

I look forward to reading what others have to say. Thanks for posting such an interesting topic.

~Jackson

EDIT: Also, feel free to tell me if I'm completely missing the point.
  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54269 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54270 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
"Can you comment on the quality & characteristics of 1st and 2nd Path from your own Understanding?

Thanks, Michael :)

"

Certainly. I'll do my best based on my own personal experience and testimony of others'¦

1st Path

After attaining 1st Path (i.e. stream entry), one's day to day perception doesn't change all that much. There are at least two noticeable changes. The most noticeable change is that one's concentration all of the sudden becomes a lot stronger'¦ A LOT! What I mean is that if one wasn't able to attain the first four shamatha jhanas prior to 1st Path, they'll most likely be able to do so now. Access to jhanas 1-4 is by no means a signifier of having attained 1st Path. It's more of a bonus.

The second noticeable change is that they cycle through the insight knowledges (ñanas) and get fruitions. This is great, because it gets the person out of the dark night for a while. Cycling throughout the days and weeks is much more pleasant than getting stuck in the dark night, so the quality of life during this part of development has its perks. But, if the yogi isn't trained in vipassana, this part may get overlooked.

However'¦ when a new Progress of Insight cycle begins, one may not be able to land a 1st Path fruition. It may manifest as a feeling of being stuck all over again. This is incredibly frustrating, as it feels as though they have lost what they work so hard to achieve. But once they complete the cycle'¦

(continued below)
  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54271 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
(continued from above)

2nd Path

I've been quoted as saying that 2nd Path is "all about the chakras," and that's how it was for me. I immediately noticed with a good deal of clarity how the body's energy moves from nexus to nexus, and how this process relates to the progress of insight. Energy gets stuck sometimes in these stages, which can be unpleasant. I almost always had a kundalini headache during 2nd Path, because the energy kept getting jammed up in my brow chakra. I felt like my eyes were bugging out some of the time.

Aside from getting to know the charkas with greater clarity, one's concentration will also ramp up again when 2nd Path is attained. If the yogi wasn't able to see jhanas 1-8 (both rupa and arupa jhanas), they should give it a try at this point. It's amazing how effortless it can be at this stage.

One's ability to do the 2nd Gear "Dwell as the Witness" practice becomes a lot easier. I'm not sure why this is, but that was my experience.

Also, if one is trained to notice fruitions, they will begin to notice the three rapids moments that occur prior to fruition with more clarity, and also be able to decipher through which of the 3 Doors fruition occurs based on the characteristics of each Door. Some people find this to be a big deal, others don't. I just thought it was cool. There are some insights to be gained from paying attention.

In a way, 1st Path and 2nd Path deal with the same stuff. 2nd Path is like a ramped up version of 1st Path in many regards. Some people have even suggested that 2nd Path is really a "non-path" since the next really big shift after 1st Path is 3rd Path. No doubt about it, 3rd Path is a BIG shift.

Is this helpful? Let me know if there are any other specifics you want to know about. I may not know the answers, but someone at the forum might.

~Jackson
  • cmarti
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15 years 10 months ago #54272 by cmarti
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model

Yeah! What he said ;-)

Jackson, my hat's off to you. Major accuracy points from my own experience.

  • haquan
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15 years 10 months ago #54273 by haquan
Replied by haquan on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
I wonder why there are 4 distinct paths instead of some other number...
Alan and Duncan have pointed out that the three grades of the A of A correlate roughly to the Theravada 4 path model.
I've looked at the Bhumi model - and that doesn't seem to correlate at all (with it's 6 stages).

I have wondered about whether each successive path in a way *subsumes* the previous ones, rather than simply one linearly following the next. This definitely seems to be the case for third and fourth path..

If we were to try to understand all this in terms of physio-energetic circuits, how would we model it?
D
  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54274 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54275 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
Hi David,

I think one way to map the physio-energetic process is to determine: 1.) Where the energy tends to get stuck at different Paths, and 2.) Where it tends to travel.

First path, the energy was mostly in my gut, but started working its way up.

Second path, started working it's way up to the brow chakra, like it was digging a pathway.

Third path, the energy gets integrated from the brow chakra down, but energy does push up into the crown chakra and get stuck there sometimes. Third path is one of the longer paths, so eventually the pathway gets integrated from the crown chakra downward.

4th path, the energy is allowed to freely flow out of the top of the head, and as Kenneth says, "rests at the hear center, completing the circuit permanently."

That's a rough sketch. I'm sure there are improvements and fine points to be added.
  • cmarti
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15 years 10 months ago #54276 by cmarti
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model

AugustLeo, have you ever experienced this:

Something occurs - a flash of light after a feeling of anticipation, an image may appear in your vision field. Then... BLIP. Blackness. After a very short period of utter nothing/blackness, your brain comes back online, like a computer that is rebooting. Familiar at all? That's a description of the experience of my first fruition/cessation. That experience changes over time, but that first one was quite unmistakable for those things: anticipation, flash, blackness, reboot.

  • Adam_West
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15 years 10 months ago #54277 by Adam_West
Replied by Adam_West on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
Hi Michael!

Would you be the AugustLeo from Taobums? As a side note, you might find that the Theravada model as it is classically understood is not terribly useful to model and understand your experience and realizations so far. I think it helps, but is not a complete representation nor wholly satisfying. For that I think the Taoist, Zen and Tibetan presentations do a better job. Knowing all of them would seem to provide a good, well rounded language and framework to model the stages and realizations of enlightenment.

In kind regards,

Adam.
  • haquan
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15 years 10 months ago #54278 by haquan
Replied by haquan on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
Here's another question:
Theoretically, if you can see all 20 strata of Mind, from the perspective of that model, are you an arahant? I've asked Kenneth this, but he's never responded (probably for good reasons).

Also - what's the best way to deal with different chakra models conceptually? I think the Pure Land states are better explained by the 13 chakra model than the 7 chakra model.
D
  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54279 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54280 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • awouldbehipster
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15 years 10 months ago #54281 by awouldbehipster
Replied by awouldbehipster on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
"Here's another question:
Theoretically, if you can see all 20 strata of Mind, from the perspective of that model, are you an arahant? I've asked Kenneth this, but he's never responded (probably for good reasons).

Also - what's the best way to deal with different chakra models conceptually? I think the Pure Land states are better explained by the 13 chakra model than the 7 chakra model.
D"

I don't know of the 13 chakra model. Care to point me in the direction of some resources?

I've usually explained the Pure Land states in terms of the 7 chakras, but maybe there's more to it than that. Thanks for helping me interested get piqued.
  • AugustLeo
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15 years 10 months ago #54282 by AugustLeo
Replied by AugustLeo on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
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  • kennethfolk
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15 years 10 months ago #54283 by kennethfolk
Replied by kennethfolk on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
Hi Michael,

We can talk about the 4 Path model as theory or as diagnostic tool. I'm making the distinction because I see that you are asking primarily for the latter in order to understand your own experience. Still, the pure theory lays the groundwork for the diagnosis, which is best done by working closely with someone who knows the territory well.

Jackson has done a terrific job of describing some of the experiences that can arise at the various stages. One caution, however, is that variations from one individual to the next can be significant. One person may describe being able to see "emptiness in real time" at 3rd Path, where another will describe that pre-1st Path. This is why I don't favor models that talk about what a yogi can "see" at each level; there are so many exceptions to the guidelines that such models have no diagnostic or predictive value.

For me, the best theoretical model is a bulletproof one. Here is a bulletproof model:

1st Path: Yogi has experienced all 16 Insight Knowledges at least once, including Path and Fruition. May or may not be able to review fruition.

2nd Path: There is no bulletproof criterion for 2nd Path.

3rd Path: Yogi can access one or more of the Pure Land jhanas (Pure Abodes/suddhavasa jhanas) OR nirodha samapatti.

4th Path: Yogi knows that he or she is "off the ride." The dharmic gravity that has had you locked in its inexorable grip for some period of time has disappeared completely, never to return. You know you are "done." This doesn't mean you are done with learning or growing or enlightenment in the larger sense. It means you are done with what Daniel Ingram calls "insight disease." When insight disease, which began in earnest with the first Arising and Passing Away, vanishes forever, you have reached 4th Path.

(cont)
  • kennethfolk
  • Topic Author
15 years 10 months ago #54284 by kennethfolk
Replied by kennethfolk on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
(cont)

Notice that my bulletproof model requires extensive familiarity with Theravada terminology and theory, *except* at the level of 4th Path, which should feel the same for everyone. When "done is what needs to be done" as the ancient monks used to report to the Buddha, you are an arahat. This is nothing but common sense, of course; if you are done, there's nothing left to do. If you are not done, you can't be an arahat.

It also must be pointed out that the 4 Path model is not a complete model of enlightenment as it completely ignores the "always already." I know people who are not yet 1st Path, but who are able to "see the clear light" at will. I also know arahats whose eyes glaze over in confusion at any mention of innate awareness.

Incidentally, I've recently worked with several advanced yogis who had no recollection of Theravada style fruitions/cessations, but who turned out to have taken the physio-energetic development to 3rd or 4th Path without ever knowing the 4 Path model or directly targeting it. With training, such yogis are usually able to recognize fruitions in their current experience.

(cont)
  • kennethfolk
  • Topic Author
15 years 10 months ago #54285 by kennethfolk
Replied by kennethfolk on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
(cont)

Most importantly, every yogi, no matter how advanced in development, has to know that this is not about "me." Yes, we can develop. But development happens to someone. Realization happens to no one. Michael, it sounds to me as though you may be encountering both development and the always-already. If so, it's worthwhile to consider their relationship or lack thereof. It's tempting to imagine that developmental practice has led to Realization, but this cannot be the case. That which is realized is not caused by anything; it's always here. Our "normal" state is to be too distracted to notice it. Awakeness is just the moment of noticing or recognizing what has always been the case, i.e., awareness is innate. Not surprisingly, as we tame our minds through developmental practices, it becomes more likely that we will abandon our distractedness for a moment, in which case Realization is what is left. But we would be wrong to assume that our development led to Realization. There's much more to be said here about both Realization and development, but I just wanted to lay a bit of foundation.

Kenneth
  • haquan
  • Topic Author
15 years 10 months ago #54286 by haquan
Replied by haquan on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
Hi Jackson!

This might be a good place to start: www.kheper.net/topics/chakras/chakras-Shakta.htm

I've found that chakra systems with lower numbers tend to condense two chakras together, while those with higher numbers tend to elaborate one of the chakras from lower number systems into two or more. I just like the symmetry of the 8 jhanas and then the 5 pure land states (8+5=13).

D
  • kennethfolk
  • Topic Author
15 years 10 months ago #54287 by kennethfolk
Replied by kennethfolk on topic RE: The Four Paths of Enlightenment Model
"Theoretically, if you can see all 20 strata of Mind, from the perspective of that model, are you an arahant? I've asked Kenneth this, but he's never responded (probably for good reasons)." -Haquan

Hi David,

No, I didn't have a good reason for not answering, I just got sidetracked by all of the other fascination things you and I discuss. My answer, though, is that I don't know. My sample size is too small. It may be possible to access all twenty strata from the level of anagami, but I don't know of anyone who I think has done that. In fact, you and I are the only people I've ever heard convincingly describe all twenty strata. But this map at accesstoinsight.org, seems to suggest that anagamis can learn to access all of the Pure Abodes, which would give them all 20 strata:

www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html
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